Wednesday, September 16, 2009

Why the Obama Cairo speech was bad for Israel, the Jews and Western Civilization in general

Following up on our discussion on J Street and the problems they cause for the real pro-Israel (read: ZIONIST) movement we come now to the speech that inspired all this.

On June 4th, President Obama gave a speech to the greater Islamic world. At the time, I had intended to do a breakdown of Obama's speech but never got around to it. Luckily, thanks to J Street I have finally been suitably inspired. And I'm not alone. Many prominent Jewish organizations, leaders and commentators have criticized this speech as being damaging to public perceptions of Israel and may even go so far as giving terrorists a pretext for committing their atrocities.

But not according to J Street's "Obama Smear Busters" campaign. According to Smear Busters:

Latest Smear:
Obama threw Israel under the bus in Cairo speech? Nope. A nasty smear claims President’s Cairo speech was the “end of the America’s strategic alliance with Israel” or worse. That’s nuts – did they even watch his remarks?


Yes. We did watch his remarks. And read them. Or at least I did. And nuts is right. Smear Busters continues:

As a senior Obama Administration officials said about the speech, “The President went before a Cairo audience in a speech co-sponsored by Al-Azhar with Muslim Brotherhood members in the audience and spoke of America’s strong, unshakable support for Israel. He could have gone to a million different venues to say this, but he went to Cairo, and it wasn’t exactly an applause line.”

Wow, an unnamed Obama Administration official liked what Obama had to say. What a tremendously authentic, non-partisan authority on Zionism! But enough of the stupidity, because as Smear Busters itself tells us:

...don’t just take this advisor’s word for it. Read the speech transcript below – or watch the video (also below) and make your own conclusions:

Indeed we will.

For starters, Smear busters doesn't even give us the entire speech on their site...click here to read the whole thing.

For seconders even the parts they quote has several issues. The following is a selection of the more unsettling statements and some rebuttals for them:

Obama statement:

and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied."
Rebuttal: The aspiration for a Jewish homeland is NOT "rooted in a tragic history" - it's rooted in the right for self-determination. We don't deserve Israel because the world feels guilty or bad for us, we want Israel because it is historically our homeland and it is our RIGHT to have one. Obama's statement plays into the "it's to make up for the Holocaust so go get your land from Germany" argument that Israel haters always like to throw around. That this is BOLDED by the J Street writer shows that he/she either has no understanding of the situation or is also on Team Hamas. Strike 1.

Obama statement:

On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people -- Muslims and Christians -- have suffered in pursuit of a homeland.
Rebuttal: Holocaust on the one hand, Palestinian suffering "on the other hand". I see, 6 million dead in 5 years, 99.9999% of which are innocent civilians brutally massacred just for being alive VS maybe 6,000 dead over 22 years, half of which are terrorists or their collaborators and 70% of which approve of the terrorists and were tragically caught in the crossfire of a war that their side instigated. Right. Totally the same thing. Great linkage there Mr. President. Strike 2.

Just for fun by the way, check out where the overall Arab-Israeli conflict ranks on the list of conflicts since 1950 with over 10,000 fatalities. I'll give you a hint - if it was the Billboard Top 40 list you'd never hear it on the radio. That's Gwar territory.

Obama statement:

Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations -- large and small -- that come with occupation.
Rebuttal: Why are they in refugee camps exactly? It's been several decades and billions of dollars in aid already. Shouldn't the Palestinians have built up some infrastructure during that time, using that money? Or maybe...you know...a few permanent houses? Why hasn't Hamas, Fatah, Jordan (which administered the West Bank for almost 20 years in an ACTUALLY apartheid occupation), or Egypt (which administered GAZA for almost 20 years) done anything to build anything other than rockets, bombs and terrorist summer camps for children? Why keep the Palestinians in refugee camps? It's pretty clear why...if they're in refugee camps they're angry. If they're angry they fight the "Zionist occupation". If they fight the "occupation" they're too busy to realize how badly their leadership is screwing them on a daily basis. Which keeps the leadership in power.

And why is there an occupation anyway? Is it a land grab? Is Israel just keeping the Palestinians down for the sake of keeping them down? Or is it because every Palestinian that crosses into Israel is a potential exploded bus or restaurant or mall or school. To be very clear, not all Arabs who cross into Israel-proper are terrorists. The vast majority of them want to work in Israel's economy and bring Israeli money back to their families.

However, nearly every attack in Israel has originated in the West or Gaza. If the Palestinians did a better job of reining in the murderers, there would be no need for checkpoints or "humiliations" of any kind. When there is quiet, restrictions are relaxed. When there is violence, the military does what it needs to break it up and prevent it from affecting innocents. To suggest otherwise only feeds into the enemy's propaganda. Thanks Mr. President! STRIKE THREE.

Obama statement:

And America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own.
Rebuttal: Who doesn't give them dignity? Israel? Check the standard of living for Arabs living in Israel VS say... Arabs living in Egypt. You know where Palestinians have the least amount of dignity and opportunity? In Gaza, which is also the only place on Earth where they happen to have a de facto state of their own. And Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq and the rest of the Arab states are in a 22-way-tie for 2nd-worst conditions. Strike 4.

Obama statement:

For decades then, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with legitimate aspirations
Wrong again. There have been numerous opportunities for the Palestinians to achieve their national aspirations and they have declared war at every opportunity. Israelis have legitimate aspirations for peace and security. Palestinians in large part and especially their leadership, have aspirations to destroy Israel. Is that legitimate? I think not...what say you Smear Busters? J Street? Mr. Obama? Jimmy Carter? Anyone? Anyone?



Bueller? Bueller?

Strike 5.

Obama statement:

each with a painful history that makes compromise elusive.
Rebuttal: There's that ridiculous equivalency again. Holocaust = Palestinian rejectionism? Again, I think not. Remember, no one asked the Jews if they WANTED to be brutalized by the Nazis or any of the other groups that have tried to put an end to our way of life over the centuries. Palestinians have been asked SEVERAL times if they want a state or prefer violence and destruction. They have chosen war every time. Strike 6.

Obama statement:

It's easy to point fingers -- for Palestinians to point to the displacement brought about by Israel's founding, and for Israelis to point to the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders as well as beyond.
Rebuttal: Whoops! There's that false moral equivalency again. Displacement? How come there are more Arabs living in Israel today than in 1948? Compare that to the number of Jews in Arab countries today VS the 40's and I'll school you a bit about the term "displacement", sir. Strike 7.

Obama statement:

But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth...
...that this is a terrible speech.

Obama statement:

For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at
the center of America's founding.
Rebuttal: This is possibly the most egregious and insulting error of all. Drawing a comparison between the non-violent struggle of Blacks in America to the ultra-violent rocket attacks, bus bombings, pizzeria explosions, hotel massacres and all-out war of the Palestinians is absurd. Comparing the ACTUAL enslavement of Africans...their kidnappings and forced transportation to be beaten on the plantations of Virginia...to the reality of Palestinian life in Israel is embarrassingly false, only serves to cheapen the narrative of Black history in America and pushes the view that Israel is some kind of "apartheid" society for Palestinians. Which again, is not true and only feeds into their propaganda. Palestinians are not slaves. PERIOD. They have no non-violent Martin Luther King and their struggle is EXTREMELY violent. PERIOD. Strike EIGHT!

Obama statement:

At the same time, Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel's right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's.
Rebuttal: This too is a false equivalence. Regardless of whether or not the Palestinians should have their own country (they should)...comparing a theoretical independent Palestine to the established state of Israel (which had a tradition of independence for a thousand years before it was destroyed once and for all by the Romans...who then renamed it as the province of Palestine as a final insult to the conquered Jews and to prevent a re-emergence of rebellion) removes legitimacy from Israel much more than it grants it to "Palestine". I will say this emphatically, there has never been an independent state of Palestine ever. EVER. There is no equivalency. Acting as if there is, is something Israel's enemies do in their propaganda. It is NOT something our alleged BFF should be doing. MAJOR strike 9.

Obama statement:

The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements. (MASSIVE APPLAUSE from the crowd)
Rebuttal: Which settlements precisely are you referring to Mr. President? Are you talking about those guys who squat in trailers in outposts that are frequently vacated by the Israeli military? Or are you talking about Ariel? Gilo? The Old City? Tel Aviv? WHICH SETTLEMENTS. Furthermore, we have already established that the presence of Israeli settlers are NOT the cause of Middle Eastern strife, as violence existed there long before any "occupation" of the West Bank or Gaza. Strike 10.

Obama statement:

This construction violates previous agreements and undermines efforts to achieve peace. It is time for these settlements to stop (APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE).
Disgusting. Strike 11.

Obama statement:

And Israel must also live up to its obligation to ensure that Palestinians can live and work and develop their society. Just as it devastates Palestinian families, the continuing humanitarian crisis in Gaza does not serve Israel's security; neither does the continuing lack of opportunity in the West Bank. Progress in the daily lives of the Palestinian people must be a critical part of a road to peace, and Israel must take concrete steps to enable such progress.
Rebuttal: WHAT!?!?!?!?! Did he get this right out of the Hamas "how to brainwash ignorant Americans without really trying" handbook? Does Obama even know what the biggest source of money for Palestinians is? Money that they feed their families with! Money that ironically, they also use to build rockets and suicide bombs. Is he serious? Because if he really doesn't know who provides Palestinians with more assistance and economic opportunity than ANYONE including the Arab states, I'll give you a clue...it starts with "Is" and almost ends with "real". Too bad this speech was real.

And in other news, the West Bank economy is booming! Mahmoud Abbas says he has a "good reality" and that his people are "living a normal life". How terrible! Please note that the statements from Abbas came out almost a full WEEK before the Cairo speech. This is an astonishing willful ignorance of the facts my friends. Strikes 12, 13 and 14 ALL ROLLED INTO ONE!

Obama statement:

The Arab-Israeli conflict should no longer be used to distract the people of Arab nations from other problems.
Rebuttal: So this is what we get in return?! Palestinians get a nice chunk of prime real estate and we get.................the opportunity to not be used as propaganda tools? Shouldn't this be a basic expectation for all civilized countries and UN members? Enough already! This is absurd! If Obama could pick up this many strikes in bowling he'd be the national champion! And I haven't even touched the Iran stuff yet!

The argument I always get from pro-Obama Jews (like J Street) is that they're citizens of America, not Israel and it's not the president's job to defend a foreign country like Israel. The world expects impartiality, so that's what they should get. Right? Well, that's really great and everything if this issue was only limited to Israel. While al Qaeda and other worldwide terrorist organizations do not take their orders from Hamas, Hizballah, Fatah and all the other organizations who want to turn me into a shish kabob...they are necessarily linked together by their common ideology.

Their war isn't against Israel, it is against all of Western Civilization. Israel is just their most immediate target...and as we have learned from history, totalitarian dictatorships are never satisfied with their first target. A shark is never satisfied with its first meal. And you can keep feeding it and feeding it - until you run out of food...and then guess what?



YOU become the food.

To hell with this speech and to hell with anyone who tries to defend it. This was a stab in the eye for all of us and to try to tell me that it was anything but that, is a massive insult to my intelligence. You got that, "Smear Busters" ? You get it J Street? You got that Jimmy Carter? And no, it's not racist to point this out by the way - you naive clown.

That a group of supposed pro-Israel lobbyists defend it speaks volumes about their organization. That the president is pushing them as a legitimate voice for Israel says even more.

Now go stick that in your smear pipe and smoke it.




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12 comments:

Buzz Fugazi said...

Whatever emotional capital was available for making the Middle East a better place was wasted, along with the blood and money, by the Bush Administration in Iraq, just as I predicted. President Obama has his hands full in Afghanistan and nuclear Pakistan... and keeping troops in Iraq on Iran's border, so he is already doing his utmost to address mutual security issues. The insurgent grassroots trend in both parties (lefty peace movement for the Dems and Ron Paul for the GOP) promotes a cut and run policy: A King Lear abdication of responsibility with the illusion that the US can survive as World Leader emeritus. I share your concerns about this rhetoric, Ron, but see that in action, if not in words, President Obama is already doing what he can to make US intervention productive. I referred your blog to Lee Dynamo. I'm curious what he has to say.

Lee Diamond said...

Ron is a one-sided expert. This conflict, as we all know, has gone on a long time. There are, in fact, two sides. It makes sense that serious people will take a real interest in and struggle with both sides of the conflict.

That is what President Obama tried to do in the Cairo speech, along with the other topics he discussed. I think it was a great speech. However, you cannot speak to a global audience and say what everyone is looking to hear.

By the way Ron, I am most interested in hearing about your approach to the conflict. What is your game plan?

Anyway, you whipped and whipped and flagellated a lot of stuff here. You got all the burners going along with the upper oven and the lower oven. I can see that you are an outstanding chef or, at least I sure hope so after all the sleight of hand.

Part of the problem, just for example, with this particular conflict is the experiences/realities/etc. that simply do not meet up. The Holocaust, for example, has almost nothing to do with the Palestinians. The Mufti, of course, was appointed to his position by the British. Don't give me a bunch of lip about the Palestinians and anti-Semitism. This conflict has been about land.

This struggle the Palestinian Arabs and the Jews became engaged in was essentially over land and who were the rightful owners. The Palestinians have lived on the land continuously and the Jews have not with the exception of some Jewish residents of Jerusalem. Of course, the Jews legally purchased a percentage of the land of Israel, but I believe not a majority.

Anyway, I fell into a short historical detour I guess just to put out a different perspective.

I think the President is seeking a fair solution to the conflict.

My view is that Israel's security is critical. Palestine's economic viability is equally critical. It is critical for Israel's long term survival. The two societies are sort of stuck being somewhat connected to one another. Again, however, Israel must have secure borders. The idea of an enlarged NATO is an interesting and positive idea. There will be a need for a strong peacekeeping force, advanced technology on the borders, etc etc.

I am a small state Zionist. I admire J Street very much and am very grateful to them for giving me and many others a voice.

I supported Barack Obama for President before I heard of J Street. I did not base my support for Barack Obama on his position about Israel. We expect all our political leaders to identify with Israel because of our common traditions, values etc. I certainly have come to want leaders who are willing to challenge Israel just as they would any other ally, but fundamental support for Israel is a bedrock in America.

I hope Mr. Fugazi will think this a satisfactory foray into Ron's world.

Lee Diamond said...

I have lots more to say but I just want to add a couple things for now.

I mentioned the President's global audience. I should have made clear that both Israelis and Palestinians are looking for reassurance, support, etc. from President Obama. Based on the reaction, he clearly had more success with the Arab side than with Israel. Of course, he did get criticism from Arabs as well. Anyway, his objective is to bring the two sides together. Feel free to pummel my naive idealism. However, as other critics cannot do with health care, I don't see you offering anything in the way of a solution.

The other point I want to make is that Hamas is all about the Palestinian struggle. They never showed any interest in the notion of a death struggle against the west. Meshal at least has somewhat of an address, he appears personally in the media, etc whereas Bin Laden makes videos from his tent.

I simply do not buy this line (talk about naive) about how Hamas, Al Qaeda etc are all the same. It is true that there are ideological connections. I don't know if your readers are that interested or not. We can talk about Sayyid Qutb if you want.

Hamas is fighting for Palestine. Refusal to acknowledge that, insistence on lumping them in with Al Qaeda, etc is, in my opinion, part of an effort to perpetuate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Skinnee Jay said...

I'll comment on the whole thing later, but I had to say this:
Apperantly, Jews aren't allowed to live on Arabic grounds but Arabs are allowed to live on Jewish ground, right?

RonMossad said...

All righty gents...it seems you've given me quite a bit to work on...I'll get back to you in full after Rosh Hashana is over but Lee if you don't mind answering a couple of quick questions before I get into this I would greatly appreciate it:

1. Did you read the entire article you commented on? If not, please read the entire thing. If you did, did you click on all the links? I know you didn't because several of your issues were answered in either my own previous articles (that I linked to within the article) or other peoples' articles.

2. In reference to a couple of things you said, I could use some clarification if you don't mind:

"Don't give me a bunch of lip about the Palestinians and anti-Semitism."

What do you think about German (not Nazi, but German) anti-Semitism circa 1932?

"I am a small state Zionist."

What does this mean, excatly?

"insistence on lumping them in with Al Qaeda, etc is, in my opinion, part of an effort to perpetuate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

Why in the world do you think I (or any other Zionist) want to perpetuate the conflict?

I thank you for your comments and I'm looking forward to having an honest discussion/debate about it.

Lee Diamond said...

Just for Skinnee Jay:
If the Palestinians have a state consisting of the West Bank and Gaza, Israel will retain 78% of the UN Mandate. I don't think there is so much for Israel to complain about.

You know the Palestinians aren't going any where. And you know that at some point in the not too distant future, they are going to overtake the Jewish population.

RonMossad said...

Well I gave you guys a chance to clarify some points, no response so I'll just have to make my own assumptions.

Mr. Fugazi.

I'm not sure what you mean by Obama's actions being helpful for Israel as opposed to his words. All he's done so far is speak and what he's said has NOT been good. He doesn't want to keep troops on Iran's border and all indications are that even if he was going to, he wouldn't be using them. With his buddy telling him to shoot down Israeli jets, his continuing obsession with Israeli settlements and his failure to criticize the Palestinians on just about anything...the only words I've heard only support what I've been saying since December of 2007. He either isn't on our team or is incredibly naive. Neither option is good.

What does this have to do with former President Bush? Emotional capital? You want to talk about action? Iraq - major financier of terrorism against Israelis...GONE. Libya - major financier of terrorism against Jews and Americans...DISARMED. Afghanistan's bases - major trainer of worldwide terrorists...DESTROYED.

Did he accomplish everything that was necessary? No. Did he do the best job possible? NO. But do NOT talk to me making the Middle East a better place. The progress Bush made in killing or disarming terrorists is being REVERSED by his successor. Obama is subverting every effort made to put the bad guys out of power.

Why are you bringing up Ron Paul? I hate Ron Paul. He is wrong. He has no influence or power. The LEFT on the other hand has all the power. Did you notice the Huffington Post article I linked to? They AGREE with Brzezinski and they're not alone. Obama is surrounded by this movment. SURROUNDED. And he has surrounded himself with them willingly.

If Obama wants to be productive, he needs to go on TV tomorrow...ideally from the UN. He needs to give the Iranians an ultimatum. He needs to give them a week to renounce their nuclear program and disarm. After that, disasterous, crippling sanctions need to be imposed. If the regime isn't toppled within a month he needs to give another ultimatum. After that he needs to destroy the Iranian nuclear program with or without the support of the rest of the world.

THAT would be productive. All this futzing around and pandering for the cameras is wasting time. WASTING TIME while a group of genocidal maniacs gets their hands on the power to destroy millions of people.

Every minute that passes brings us closer to disaster and will make the action exponentially more difficult and deadly for both sides.

RonMossad said...

On to Lee:

Ron is a one-sided expert.

You know something? I'm sick of this being thrown around as if it's a bad thing. If I was in a debate about whether or not the Earth is round would you fault me for only defending the side that said it was round? Or would you expect me to present proofs on how flat the Earth is? Should I report all the stories I've read about ships sailing off the edge of the world in a giant waterfall? Should roll out a map to demonstrate how thin the Earth is?

I'm not a reporter. It's not my job to present both sides. It's my job to present the CORRECT side. Expecting anything else is ridiculous.

It makes sense that serious people will take a real interest in and struggle with both sides of the conflict. That is what President Obama tried to do in the Cairo speech

Great. My side is right. The other side is wrong. If he's 50/50 then he's 50% wrong - which for those keeping score means he's WRONG.

By the way Ron, I am most interested in hearing about your approach to the conflict. What is your game plan?

Read some more of my posts. Start with this one.

Part of the problem, just for example, with this particular conflict is the experiences/realities/etc. that simply do not meet up.

That's true. One side (the Israelis) wishes to live in peace and security. The other side has rejected every attempt to make that a reality and has opted for war at every opportunity. One side makes sacrifices, the other side demands them while giving up nothing. On side has all the strength yet doesn't use it unless forced to, while the other side has no strength and uses violence as often as possible. You are right, the realities do not meet up.

The Mufti, of course, was appointed to his position by the British.

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

Don't give me a bunch of lip about the Palestinians and anti-Semitism. This conflict has been about land.

How about just Islamic anti-Semitism? You know, that whole dhimmi and jizya thing sort of blows a hole in your whole "it's just about land" theory.

This struggle the Palestinian Arabs and the Jews became engaged in was essentially over land and who were the rightful owners.

Really? Well according to Ottoman law - you know the people that the Palestinians lived under for centuries before they realized they were a nation - the land belonged to the state. Someone call Turkey and let them know they own a ton of real estate in downtown Tel Aviv, I'm sure they'll be thrilled!

The Palestinians have lived on the land continuously

Myth

and the Jews have not with the exception of some Jewish residents of Jerusalem.

Myth. There were continuous Jewish communities in Tzfat, Tveria and Hevron (Hebron), amongst others, for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Of course, the Jews legally purchased a percentage of the land of Israel, but I believe not a majority.

No. Not a majority. However, it is interesting that much of what was legally purchased would be considered a "settlement" today.

Anyway, I fell into a short historical detour I guess just to put out a different perspective.

If by "historical detour" you meant "feeding into the Palestinian propaganda narrative" you'd be correct.

RonMossad said...

My view is that Israel's security is critical.

You don't really think that. If you did, you'd understand why it was essential that a) we keep the cities that were built in the West Bank since 1967 and b) that we not surrender anymore than we already did in 2005 until the Palestinians demonstrate first that we have an actual negotiating partner.

Palestine's economic viability is equally critical. It is critical for Israel's long term survival.

Why? Is Mexico's economic viability "critical" for America's long term survival? Why does Israel need for there to be an "economically viable Palestine" in order to "survive" ? Furthermore, what does "economically viable" mean? You want Palestinians to be approved for mortgages like that guy in Falling Down that protests outside the bank? Why is Israel responsible for the success of a Palestinian economy? Who is responsible for Israel's economy?

Stop using silly buzzwords and lay off of the talking points here. None of what you're saying means anything.

Again, however, Israel must have secure borders. The idea of an enlarged NATO is an interesting and positive idea.

What does this mean?? Israel joins NATO now? Has NATO even invited Israel to join it? What would NATO do about Palestinian terrorists? What are you talking about?

There will be a need for a strong peacekeeping force, advanced technology on the borders, etc etc.

Peacekeeping force where? In Jerusalem? West Bank? On the border? What peacekeeping force? Like the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon? Are you suggesting somehow that Israel should give up patrolling its own borders to another country? You do understand that that goes against the whole concept of why Israel exists, right?

I admire J Street very much

I can see why.

I supported Barack Obama for President

I can see why.

I certainly have come to want leaders who are willing to challenge Israel just as they would any other ally,

Challenge how? And what other ally that America has is the sole homeland of its population? What other ally faces an existential threat everyday? Israel cannot be viewed as "any other ally" because its circumstances are different than every other ally.

To make a statement like this and call yourself a Zionist within four sentences of each other is baffling.

RonMossad said...

And we're not done yet...

However, as other critics cannot do with health care, I don't see you offering anything in the way of a solution.

This is why I wanted to know if clicked the links. One of them was to my post on the two-state solution concept which included my idea of what should be done right now until the Palestinians can put together an actual leader that cares more about progress for his people than being a corrupt dictator.

However, as other critics cannot do with health care, I don't see you offering anything in the way of a solution.

Still with the talking points. What does this post have to do with health care? Unless of course you're talking about health care for Palestinians - provided of course by Israelis.

The other point I want to make is that Hamas is all about the Palestinian struggle. They never showed any interest in the notion of a death struggle against the west.

Here's a bit from a Hamas children's magazine you might enjoy:

"Salaam Aleykum my dear beloved. I would like to introduce myself: I am the city Asbilia, the bride of the country Andalus (Spain). In the past I was the Capital of the Kingdom of Asbilia… the Arab Muslims, led by the hero-commander Musa bin Nusair, conquered me in 713, after a siege, which lasted one month.

“In the year 97 of the Muslim calendar, the ruler of Andalus, Ayoub bin Habib al-Lahimi moved the Capital to my sister city, Cordoba… in the year 646 of the Muslim calendar, Ferdinand III besieged me and conquered me after a siege which lasted one year and five months, and that was due to the strength of my fortifications and my walls. This is when the Golden Age of the Muslims ended, and Asbilia (Seville) was lost by the Muslims.”

And the story goes on: “However, Muslim cultural expression and symbols still remain witness to the superior Muslim culture on my soil…I yearn that you, my beloved, will call me to return, together with the rest of the lost cities of the lost orchard [Andalus] to the hands of the Muslims so that joy and happiness will fill my land, and you will visit me because I am the bride of the country of Andalus."


Clear enough for you?

RonMossad said...

Hamas is fighting for Palestine. Refusal to acknowledge that, insistence on lumping them in with Al Qaeda...

Then you repeat this. As if this is somehow a justification or makes them not as bad as al Qaeda or their methods somehow less abhorrent if ALL they're trying to do is to drive the Jews into the sea. Nevermind the fact that they are clearly in favor of the destruction of the west. By the way, if that last link didn't do it for you, try these videos of state-run Palestinian television shows calling for the destruction of the USA, Britain, etc etc etc. Here's a video of a Fatah member specifically reaching out to al Qaeda, saying that they hate Americans more than al Qaeda does.

...is, in my opinion, part of an effort to perpetuate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

NO. That is INCORRECT. FAILURE to connect the dots and see what is really going on, who the enemy is and what his tactics are is what perpetuates the conflict. FAILURE to act in defense of freedom, liberty and justice...not only for Jews but for ARABS in Israel is what perpetuates the conflict. FAILURE to recognize thae FACT that the Palestinian leadership is NOT negotiating in good faith, never has and probably won't for a very long time perpetuates the conflict. Support for J Street and foolish Obama-style-photo-op diplomacy is what perpuates the conflict and KILLS JEWS AND ARABS DEAD.

I don't know what to tell you...either you've ignored these facts, chosen to circumvent them or had no idea they were out there. The real Zionists, the real pro-Israel camp knows this reality all too well. The fakers and J Streeters are living in some parallel-universe fantasy-land that I wish I lived in too.

Please get your facts straight before claiming to represent us or speak for us. Stick to health care, ridiculous "stimulus" bills, absurd government spending and destroying people's ambitions to get ahead.

But for God's sake, leave the Israel advocacy to the professionals.

RonMossad said...

AND FINALLY

And you know that at some point in the not too distant future, they are going to overtake the Jewish population.

MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH MYTH

If the Palestinians have a state consisting of the West Bank and Gaza, Israel will retain 78% of the UN Mandate.


Yes, and if the Palestinians only got to keep one olive grove out of the entire West Bank they would have inifinity% of independent historic Palestine.

(because it never existed)

Who is even talking about the UN Mandate? What is this, 1947?

I don't think there is so much for Israel to complain about.

You don't think that forcing a quarter of a million Jews off of their land and out of their houses when we already tried it and it didn't work isn't something to COMPLAIN ABOUT?!?!?! You have NO BUSINESS even contemplating calling yourself a Zionist. You have a lot of nerve acting as if you are an Israel advocate in one post while calling for the forced removal of Jews inside a sovereign Jewish state in another.

Especially since we tried it once and it DIDN'T WORK!!!!