I recently had a conversation with someone about the election. Generally, this blog has avoided commenting much on the never-ending election cycle, although I made my stance known on our new president-elect fairly early on in the process. However, something that was said during that conversation lit a fuse inside me. The topic of "white guilt" and its role in the election came up when the other person said he was voting for Obama in part because it would help the United States "atone" for slavery. I said that the very fact that he said the country had to atone for slavery at all speaks to a certain amount of white guilt (that almost certainly factored at least a little in this election) in-and-of-itself.
Here's the deal...most Americans did NOT own slaves...and the country split in half and destroyed itself for five years over it. I mean I think that’s pretty much enough. It’s not like Nazi Germany (Holocaust), or Spain (Inquisition), or the Catholic Church (Crusades, millenia of oppression), or Egypt (slavery), or Italy (Roman Empire scattering our ancestors all over the world), or Greece (Greek Empire trying to put an end to our culture, religion and way of live), or France (Nazi collaboration/Holocaust), or Russia/Poland/allofEasternEurope (ghettos, pogroms, and on and on) and pretty much every other country in the world ever had a civil war over what they did to us...where they abused us for CENTURIES if not MILLENIA and never repented. EVER. Hundreds of thousands of Americans died on both sides over slavery. The civil rights movement and Affirmative Action happened.
Where is my affirmative action??
Where’s MY reparations for the 22 million dead Jews at the hands of the church. Or the 6 million at the hands of the Nazis. Or the millions upon millions upon millions of our brothers, sisters and cousins who were tortured, enslaved, displaced, discriminated-against, hated, demonized and murdered throughout the history of our people? WHERE? At least the Africans had until what, the 1500’s before the Europeans started with them? My people have been hunted since the very dawn of our culture!
I just don’t want to HEAR it anymore. ENOUGH already. Where was Germany’s civil war? Or Russia’s? Where were the pro-Jewish abolitionists??? Who was willing to fight for MY grandparents? And their grandparents? And their grandparents’ grandparents?
TO HELL WITH THAT.
Where’s my American president? Where’s my social justice? My distribution of wealth? I had nothing when I was growing up. I never asked for a damn hand out. When I moved out of my parents’ house at 18 I had NOTHING for years. I could have qualified for welfare, or government assistance or public housing (like ALL of my neighbors did) but it never even entered my mind to ASK.
That’s the atonement for American slavery. That’s all that’s necessary. I don’t need to see Obama now take more of MY hard-earned money so his buddies can have more hand outs. I don’t need to see Obama going and talking to people who would like to see my current Israeli relatives (as well as me and you and all of us) turned into stinking corpses. I don’t need ANY of that nonsense to atone for something that I never was a part of and quite frankly have the market cornered on.
My parents are both immigrants. My family never owned a single slave. None of my relatives or friends or friends of relatives or relatives of friends' relatives ever had slaves.
Just by default, every child or grandchild of an immigrant post-1865 is entirely absolved of any guilt or responsibility for slavery. And every child or grandchild of an immigrant can tell you stories about discrimination during the 19th and 20th centuries...
Maybe it's befitting that this conversation (and perhaps the election in general) happened on the eve of Kristalnacht. Because you see...my grandparents WERE slaves in Auschwitz. They told me stories, firsthand about how they were beaten and tortured by their masters. And for what? For an insane ideology - for nothing.
Who else in this country can say that about their family aside from the Jews? Living relatives who were slaves.
So why, tell me why I should I have to pay for the mistakes of people who lived 150 years ago? People who discriminated against my people as well Blacks. People who I have no relation to whatsover.
Was American slavery bad? Absolutely. Is there still discrimination against Blacks in today’s society? Absolutely. I am not minimizing the Black slavery experience at all...it, along with the treatment of the American Indians were both shameful blotches on the history of this country.
But frankly, they are blotches that have got exactly ZERO to do with me. And I’m sick of having to pay for other people’s suffering while mine continues to go unrecognized and ignored. Tell someone that Jews are discriminated against today and you get laughed at because of all the famous and rich Jews. Statistically Jews in America have the highest standard of living of any minority and to ask for a handout would truly be ludicrous. But people, let's remember though that a mere 70 years ago today
our grandparents were the victims of the largest pogrom in history while the rest of the world (including the United States and Franklin Delano Roosevelt) stood idly by and did nothing. Where is the justice there?
No one helped the Jews get to where we are today. I for one do not want any help.
But I REFUSE to be made to feel that just because I get sunburned more frequently than other people that I should feel GUILTY about slavery.
Not me. Not now. Not ever. I'm just not interested in hearing it.
We've ALREADY paid our dues - this day is just a reminder of them.
Never again.
Sunday, November 9, 2008
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7 comments:
I'm not someone who believes that it makes sense for whites to vote for a black candidate in order to "atone" for slavery.
But it doesn't follow that believing the country should atone for slavery means there's "white guilt."
I, for one, feel no guilty about the past, but I do believe our country has never acknowledged its behavior nor tried to make up for it.
Many American families owned slaves. The typical pattern wasn't large plantations full of slaves, but one or two slaves in a middle-class household. More importantly, all Americans alive during slavery benefited significantly from that evil practice.
Also, the Civil War was not fought to end slavery. That only became a war aim well into the war. Union soldiers went to war to defend their land and to preserve the Union; they didn't know that the Union would later seek to end slavery.
You write that your parents were immigrants. How did they survive in this country? Our strong economy in the 19th and 20th centuries, with plenty of jobs and much infrastructure, so that immigrants could work hard and thrive here, were largely due to slavery.
Your immigrant ancestors, like mine, were free of any responsibility for slavery. But they came here and received the benefits nonetheless.
(And that help-wanted, no-Irish-need-apply sign is fun, but it's not an historical sign. It turns out there never were such signs; that was just a fiction used to describe discrimination against the Irish, which was never anything like that against blacks.)
James - I'll try to briefly address some of your points here.
"I, for one, feel no guilty about the past, but I do believe our country has never acknowledged its behavior nor tried to make up for it."
This is true and again, I would never even dream of trying to justify the mistakes this country has made. In all honesty though, when compared to other nations, including supposedly enlightened European countries, the USA's record is pretty clean. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly better than most of the world.
"The typical pattern wasn't large plantations full of slaves, but one or two slaves in a middle-class household."
Perhaps - but the fact remains that "many" American households does not equate to "most" or "all"
"More importantly, all Americans alive during slavery benefited significantly from that evil practice."
One could argue that the entire world benefitted from slavery. If not during the era of American slavery (during which we exported the cotton, tobacco, etc to Europe and elsewhere) than at other points in history. Basically every nation on Earth has had an experience with slavery in one form or another.
"Also, the Civil War was not fought to end slavery. That only became a war aim well into the war. Union soldiers went to war to defend their land and to preserve the Union; they didn't know that the Union would later seek to end slavery."
The war itself (and Lincoln's decision to go to war) was more about re-unifying the Union than anything else...BUT one of the major schisms between the North and South and driving force for secession to begin with was the fear that the free states would outlaw slavery throughout the USA. Remember, Bleeding Kansas.
"(And that help-wanted, no-Irish-need-apply sign is fun, but it's not an historical sign. It turns out there never were such signs; that was just a fiction used to describe discrimination against the Irish, which was never anything like that against blacks.)"
My point with the sign wasn't specifically about the Irish...more about the discrimination against all immigrants. Those signs, myths though they may be are indicative of the Xenophobia our immigrant ancestors had to put up with. Some more than others. None as bad as slavery but there nonetheless and still persistent in a post-slavery America.
Although, like slavery that discrimination is becoming less of a factor with each passing generation. Obama's election, to me, should put it to bed once and for all. Anyone can now rule the United States - no one can say they don't have a chance.
Thanks for responding, Ron.
the fact remains that "many" American households does not equate to "most" or "all"
All I was saying is that it's not accurate to say that "most" Americans didn't own slaves.
ne of the major schisms between the North and South and driving force for secession to begin with was the fear that the free states would outlaw slavery throughout the USA.
True. My only point was that those hundreds of thousands of Americans didn't die, on either side, in order to end slavery.
You were speaking about whether the U.S. should atone in some fashion for its slavery, and you suggested that the Civil War, and their deaths, were "pretty much enough." My point is that while that conflict was unfortunate, and in part the result of engaging in slavery in the first place, it was hardly atoning to the victims for what was done to them.
None as bad as slavery but there nonetheless and still persistent in a post-slavery America.
None even remotely as bad as slavery, even though anti-immigrant discrimination was plenty bad enough. And that discrimination ended much more quickly in post-slavery America, to the point that millions and millions of immigrants, or their descendants, benefited in the 20th century from massive government programs limited to whites, while blacks were excluded.
that discrimination is becoming less of a factor with each passing generation.
While that's partially true, by many measures discrimination against blacks is as bad as ever. And the effects of slavery and the history of discrimination are mostly still with us. By most measures, at current rates we're still many generations from putting those effects behind us.
Obama's election, to me, should put it to bed once and for all.
Why? His election doesn't mean that discrimination has magically stopped. Nor that blacks have suddenly caught up to whites and finally achieved equality, after so many generations of struggle following slavery, when blacks were freed with nothing.
no one can say they don't have a chance.
True. Like being held back at the start of a race, and then being told they're free to catch up, as long as they can run fast enough. A few many be so fast they can catch up and pass many of the runners, but most won't be able to make up for the delayed start.
Hi there, James? You don't know what you're talking about. I'm the great-grandchild of one of those Irish immigrants (a Jewish Irsh immigrant, at that), who saw those signs. :) kthnxbai.
You don't know what you're talking about. I'm the great-grandchild of one of those Irish immigrants (a Jewish Irsh immigrant, at that), who saw those signs. :)
Well, all I can tell you is that historians have concluded that those signs were a myth.
If you have reason to trust that any of your ancestors actually saw such a sign, please speak up. It would be exciting historical news. :-)
"All I was saying is that it's not accurate to say that "most" Americans didn't own slaves."
What percentage of Americans owned slaves?
"True. My only point was that those hundreds of thousands of Americans didn't die, on either side, in order to end slavery.
You were speaking about whether the U.S. should atone in some fashion for its slavery, and you suggested that the Civil War, and their deaths, were "pretty much enough." My point is that while that conflict was unfortunate, and in part the result of engaging in slavery in the first place, it was hardly atoning to the victims for what was done to them."
But if a major root cause for the conflict was slavery...then in reality those hundreds of thousands of Americans died for it. Put it this way - if there was no slavery in the South and they had all abolished it on their own as in the North - do you believe the Civil War happens?
"None even remotely as bad as slavery, even though anti-immigrant discrimination was plenty bad enough. And that discrimination ended much more quickly in post-slavery America, to the point that millions and millions of immigrants, or their descendants, benefited in the 20th century from massive government programs limited to whites, while blacks were excluded."
Immigrants never were the beneficiaries of Affirmative Action as far as I know.
"While that's partially true, by many measures discrimination against blacks is as bad as ever. And the effects of slavery and the history of discrimination are mostly still with us. By most measures, at current rates we're still many generations from putting those effects behind us."
I'm not sure how you can say discrimination is "as bad as ever" - it used to be slavery. That's "as bad as ever." But even taking that out of the mix...with Affirmative Action and all the PC stuff going on in this country (example Imus firing), minorities are more protected than ever.
"Why? His election doesn't mean that discrimination has magically stopped. Nor that blacks have suddenly caught up to whites and finally achieved equality, after so many generations of struggle following slavery, when blacks were freed with nothing."
"True. Like being held back at the start of a race, and then being told they're free to catch up, as long as they can run fast enough. A few many be so fast they can catch up and pass many of the runners, but most won't be able to make up for the delayed start."
But that's how the world works. Some people are born rich, some people are born poor. Everyone in this country can get a job, work hard, get ahead and live a normal life if they try. Some people have an easier time than others...what can you do? It's part of the incentive of getting ahead - making sure your children will have an easier time than you did.
What percentage of Americans owned slaves?
I don't believe that anyone has an overall answer to that question.
We know the answer in specific cases. For example, half of all ministers in Connecticut owned slaves, shortly before the state emancipated its slaves.
My point was simply that we can't dismiss concerns about slavery by saying that most Americans didn't own slaves. Slave owning was quite common and, much more importantly, all Americans alive during slavery benefited significantly from it. In fact, those of us alive today all benefit from slavery, too.
if a major root cause for the conflict was slavery...then in reality those hundreds of thousands of Americans died for it
They died in part because of slavery. But not for the purpose of freeing the slaves.
I don't see how you could dismiss the issue of atoning for slavery by noting that the nation paid a heavy price for its sins. That may be so, but that hardly does anything for the victims. (Except ending the evil practice, which is hardly the same as atoning for it. We don't call it even when a murderer says he won't kill any more.)
Immigrants never were the beneficiaries of Affirmative Action as far as I know.
Immigrants were the beneficiaries of much larger federal government programs than blacks ever have been.
During the 20th century, those who were in this country (including immigrants and their descendants) received massive federal assistance to buy homes, start small businesses, and get college educations. These programs are widely said to have built the American middle class.
Meanwhile, affirmative action has benefited mostly white women and Asian-Americans. Blacks have benefited some, too, but it's hardly made a dent in black lives by any socioeconomic measure.
I'm not sure how you can say discrimination is "as bad as ever" - it used to be slavery.
Good point! I spoke poorly. Discrimination against blacks is much better than it was during slavery--but by many measures, no better than it was a generation or two ago.
with Affirmative Action and all the PC stuff going on in this country (example Imus firing), minorities are more protected than ever.
A common myth. I mentioned affirmative action just above. Meanwhile, research shows that blacks are still discriminated against in hiring, promotion, home loans, small business loans, and on and on.
The fact that we have a highly PC culture that fires a host for a fleeting use of language doesn't change that.
But that's how the world works. Some people are born rich, some people are born poor.
And when that simply happens, we do say it's "just life."
When our nation caused the inequality, and did so by committing highly immoral acts, don't we take notice?
When our nation retains the benefits of its immoral actions, to this day, then don't we wonder whether anything should be done?
I'm fine with the idea that maybe nothing should be done, for practical reasons, for example. But to suggest that there isn't even an issue, that strikes me as hard to understand.
Everyone in this country can get a job, work hard, get ahead and live a normal life if they try.
Yes. And that's true of blacks, as long as we understand that most of them are starting far behind, and would have a much harder time achieving what the average white citizen could.
The issue is, does it matter why that's so? Does it matter why their ancestors were able to pass so little on to them, and where the benefits from that practice ended up?
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